Thread: SEO on drop down menu

I may decide to use a drop down menu for a "tips & tech" section with several pages. Will the SE's see those links the same as if they were actual text links on the pages?

No.
But, despite all the advice to the contrary, it is not all that important in the longrun anyway......the overall metrics of Search Engine logic to rank and cache relevance of your site goes so far beyond the myopic (and obviously ****) focus on SEO "elements" so drummed into our heads by our peer "gurus".

Recent studies and hard-print examples show that the web is evolving (HAS been evolving) into the W3 model I began talking about in October of last year, where the "Perfect Page" construct model is the only remaining imperative of the old "rules" regarding SEO. In fact, the same exhaustive study has proven it better to not even complete the Key Word and debateably much of the Meta information on your page builds: let the SE's themselves assign values from the true content they find, and thus do not penalize you for inconsistancies or poorly developed KW strategies!!!
And, when the SE's do not find the typical KW, Meta, and static Nav systems, they are compelled to entirely spider the site......with or without an ROR prompt. This actually becomes a strategy by default, as they will repeat a full cache each month without depending on dynamic content to instance the need to re-evaluate.

Fear not in using SE-invisible Navigation systems (drop-down in BV, Flash, iFrame, etc.)....but do not forsake common sense in balancing link strategy (reciprocol balance, links as page titles, logical interior navigational flow, etc.).

Trust me......what I speak of is true, and bound to stir more than a few here in VT, but it is what it is.

Good Luck!!



And....I trust those are all VodaHosted Websites in your signature, correct Major??

Thank you!!!

One more please?
One of my websites made it to page one, finally (masterpac.com)
However, someone hacked the system and was sending spam. The website was blacklisted....twice.... before the problem was finally fixed.
Needless to say, masterpac is no longer on page one or for that matter in the first 10 pages. Will we ever get back to where we once were?
Thanks

Yes, those are all VH hosted.

What do you mean by "hacked the system" which caused blacklisting?

Hacking a site usually refers to manipulating code or construct to re-arrange or graffitti a site, and blacklisting is something done by an ISP or Host/Registrar for Spamming (exceeding band allowances or not complying with email protocols -- or as it seems in your related case, using your email address and/or usecured email function on a VH server) or by a SE upon verification of deceptive practices or malicious content.

Who "blacklisted" your site, and specifically for what reason?
If it was done by an SE or ISP, ICANN has means to rectify any punitive processes or actions.

It is my FIRM CONVINTION, on the contrary of what above stated, that a site with only Javascript menus, and without any sitemap, has NO CHANCE AT ALL that the inside pages are ever indexed.

SE crawlers, will easily find the index page, because new domains get listed in specific pages by all registrars. If, however, there are NO STATIC LINKS (like text, image, button or other) to the internal pages, SE will NEVER find them. Crawlers do NOT have FTP permissions so they can NOT crawl your site for pages, unless some link leads to those pages.

And i am very sceptic as to keywords. I do NOT want a SE to assign keywords for my site, i like it to index my site for the keywords that I BELIEVE that are more relevant to my job and site. SE that do this job usually do it automatically, so they can NOT know any perticular points about my job or site.
Of course, it is YOUR responsibility to use the right content and keywords to obtain a good ranking, as it is also your responsibility if bad use of keywords leads you to bad ranking.

Originally Posted by navaldesign

It is my FIRM CONVINTION, on the contrary of what above stated, that a site with only Javascript menus, and without any sitemap, has NO CHANCE AT ALL that the inside pages are ever indexed.

SE crawlers, will easily find the index page, because new domains get listed in specific pages by all registrars. If, however, there are NO STATIC LINKS (like text, image, button or other) to the internal pages, SE will NEVER find them. Crawlers do NOT have FTP permissions so they can NOT crawl your site for pages, unless some link leads to those pages.

And i am very sceptic as to keywords. I do NOT want a SE to assign keywords for my site, i like it to index my site for the keywords that I BELIEVE that are more relevant to my job and site. SE that do this job usually do it automatically, so they can NOT know any perticular points about my job or site.
Of course, it is YOUR responsibility to use the right content and keywords to obtain a good ranking, as it is also your responsibility if bad use of keywords leads you to bad ranking.

On the contrary? Really.....despite your statements, you have replied in the affirmative to all I mentioned, general!

Not true!
A prime example is a Flash based site with no formal "submission" to any SE being cached page-by-page with all the actual Textual Content being captured, albeit not any of the content in any "pop-up" or other non-displayed page element.
Not only is a javascript masking the navigation similar to how Flash codes in hyperlinks and presents commands of SWIsh action, there is no easy way to insert any map or ROR type file within the hard coding.....thus your comment about the abscence of an ROR file with a java (or similarly dynamic) navigation not allowing hope of cache or spidering hold any water whatsoever.
(I have 2 personal websites to serve as definitve case studies to evidence these facts, as well as can direct to others that experienced the same results)

Again, I disagree, with proof to bear.
Related to the same answer above.

Not only are your comments supportive of my statements, they also are logically supportive of the SE behaviors and manners that explain the above statements and issues.
Certainly you have the php and CSS background to "see" this as so. And, General, we all know your expertise in programming.....yet the issues and premises I presented are well documented and are the very basis for by which these professional SEO firms eek out their living: preying upon the ignorance of others!

Originally Posted by Vasili

Trust me......what I speak of is true, and bound to stir more than a few here in VT, but it is what it is.

"I told you so!"

Flash sites, and other scripted sites often MIRROR with an html version of that site, so in effect it DOES have links rather its a manually generated SITEMAP/HTML whatever, it does have links for the SE to follow however well disguised it is. The links just arent necessarily visible to the EYE on the page. It is true however, that the SE are getting better able to follow coding, but FLASH and JAVASCRIPT are two different ballgames.

If you want to know if the se can see your links or not, go to google.com, search for your site, then choose the cache version and view TEXT only. If you can see the links to other pages, then no worry, if they cant then you must do something else to get them there.

Karen

PS. <THROWS POPCORN AT VASILI ANNNNNND his ***** cart>:)

Eric:

And, when the SE's do not find the typical KW, Meta, and static Nav systems, they are compelled to entirely spider the site......with or without an ROR prompt

This is what i was refering to, when saying "on the contrary of what stated above".

And, i am NOT refering to users that use ready made sites which, as Karen stated, create html mirrors or have other ways of creating links between pages. I am refering to a BV made site, just not to lose the original poster's issue. If the navigation through pages is only made with Javascript menus (BV's own dropdowns, for the specific case), the internal pages will never be found by SE. See it like this: i am in Sahara, i know there is an oasis somewhere, and even if i have a GPS i will never find it unless i have the coordinates. (Replace "Sahara" with "Pacific ocean" and "oasis" with "island" since i am NAVAL LOL !!)
I repeat: SE crawlers can NOT crawl your site generically speaking. From the technical point of view, this is impossible, because they would need FTP access permissions, which they do not have. They can only look for specific pages, thanks to links that are found on other pages. That's where a xml or even simple text sitemap is of help: once they find the sitemap, they find all the URLs related to your site (at least the ones that you want)

My second comment about keywords: I don't see where we disagree. I am simply stating that i PERSONALLY would prefer that SE look first for MY keywords, and only as a last option they assign keywords automatically.

Naval,

I am agreeing with you, but I was explaining HOW flash sites are optimized without a visible linking system, they either mirror with html content, or.. do a site map as you suggested. And I agree.. to date they cant read java scripted menus. Thats why MOST of my sites have footer links as well as an html/xml sitemap.

Karen

I know Kare, in fact i stated that i am not refering to such kind of scripted sites, because the programmers that create those usually adopt alternative ways of creating the necessary (for SE) links.

Geesh......I suppose the REAL issue is whether to use Java, right?
Do the Navigation systems in BV rely on Java, or are they a hybrid of HTML and CSS (which are more benign)?
And if it is a matter of code type, would the BV-php method be a satisfactory alternative? Would selecting a script from a 3rd party source also be worthy as an alternative (like dynamicdrive.com)?

And I am (in fact) aware of the coding used in Flash and the dual nature of page construction (using HTML and Flash simultaneously)....which creates the need to "clean up code" in most purchased templates as well as have a means to "stuff" information harmlessly into the HTML page......the sloppy way some optimize Flash altogether.

You have popcorn in your blouse, Karen.......must have fallen in when you leaned forward to peer so intensely at the monitor......LOL

Vasili,

It doesnt matter WHERE the javascript comes from, java is java is java. The SE just doesnt read thru the code currently.. they will some day. CSS yes, and they can probably read the buttons, but the java used to link the pages and create the effects isnt read thru.

Karen

To clarify: BV dropdowns are Javascript. Java is a bit different from Java, though it's origin is from Java.
SE cannot (currently) read Javascript.

BV navigations: Go menus, Text menu, as well as the classic nav bar (The one with the buttons) are ok, as they are simply linked images (when published) , drop downs as explained are not SE friendly..

The css has nothing to do with the menus themselves. The css only takes care of the styling, not of the menus themselves. Menus made with css are usually lists of links that are simply styled through css. My own site menubar is a css styled text menubar.

The php method i have described will embedd in the page whichever element you want, menus as well. If the menus are based on Javascript, the pages will not be SE friendly, if they are text menus or Go menus, etc, they will be SE friendly. The method itself is neither SE friendly or not friendly.

Thanks, G.

It seems then, that for use in BV-created websites selecting drop-down scripts (or the like) available from 3rd parties that are not written in Java will be the only alternative.......as would using the duplicative "footer links" that are so messy.

Once again, the technology bubble forces a que for the enlightened to patiently wait in....

and on we go......

Originally Posted by Vasili

Thanks, G.

It seems then, that for use in BV-created websites selecting drop-down scripts (or the like) available from 3rd parties that are not written in Java will be the only alternative.......as would using the duplicative "footer links" that are so messy.

Once again, the technology bubble forces a que for the enlightened to patiently wait in....

and on we go......

There are NOT (in my knowledge) dropdown menus that do NOT use Javascript, by any third parties.

You see, having a dropdown, means running, within your own browser, some software that makes this dynamic behaviour possible. And this is only possible with Java and Javascript.

Have a look here for the difference between Java and javascript: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/beyond/ja...le.php/3470971
However, the SE part of it is NOT so important, as long as a systematic classic net of links is built to connect webpages together.

In example, you can have the main navbar using dropdowns, (that are SO MUCH functional) and have a secondary, bottom placed text menu to provide the necessary links between pages. In my opinion, this is not even required, if you have a good sitemap and a link to it from the index page. Once found the index page, SE crawlers will find the sitemap, and from there ALL pages.

Originally Posted by navaldesign

In example, you can have the main navbar using dropdowns, (that are SO MUCH functional) and have a secondary, bottom placed text menu to provide the necessary links between pages. In my opinion, this is not even required, if you have a good sitemap and a link to it from the index page. Once found the index page, SE crawlers will find the sitemap, and from there ALL pages.

LOL....Again, I agree totally, and we have come "full-circle"!! (As long as we are speaking of BV-created websites)

Thus, my original statement stands: optimization and the myopic focus so preached in VT is rather frivolous and unrewarding at best --- let the SE's do the the work for us, and likely they will do an optimal job even on their worst day!

LOLOL

In my opinion, this is a totally different issue. We were facing the issue of SE being able to find the pages, now we are talking about optimization.

At the present time, i believe that keywords, hi tags and other optimization procedures are VERY useful.

This is how i see it: a page full of text is like a number of words to a search engine eyes, humans are able to connect them and understand the significance. So, at least for now, i prefer to PERSONALLY select my keywords and i would prefer that SE use those instead of those automatically retrieved

Naval,

I agree with you 100&#37;. Only thing I'm going to mention - is when you talk about keywords - it's the use of them on the page, in links to the page, in the title that are important. I just don't want some noob here thinking it's the keyword meta tag that's important - and go spamming it like most are wont to do :)

Beth, to be honest i had never considered optimization to be so important for me, as my customers usually come from this very forum and not from a free search that users perform on the net. There are just too many software companies out there, to hope to get in the first couple of pages in a Google search. Nevertheless, my site has reached Rank 3 in almost all main pages in just 6 months, and i consider it a good result.

However, i do start considering it, for my own customers sites. And, i am at the moment, creating dynamic (php) sites, which create the pages retrieving data from the database, and also creating automatically the necessary alt tags, h tags and titles in hyperlinks.

Quite interesting. LOL

Naval,
It sounds quite interesting - how you are creating the pages dynamically. I've had that done a few times and always end up going and tweaking much. However, if you are doing the page creation and you're adding the information via the database, you won't have much tweaking most likely - as you'll be looking at what is going in the database to begin with :)

Usually when I see these, the people are using a database from a dropshipper, etc - and they don't change anything - so the pages end up being duplicate content to hundreds of others on the web - making them pretty useless.

Naval,

Actually you dont need to do extra for the php pages as long as they dont extend more than one parameter past the first ?. Its pretty much the same for html pages divided by the /folder/folder.. after the second one the SE starts penalizing by not reading those links or putting them in supplemental results for later spidering. So you could have, whateversite.com/whatever/page.php? and be ok, it would be the deeper links that would be the issue. So.. I follow the rule that the more you can make ONTOP or a top level page with out a sub page to be the most beneficial, and only SUB where i have to.

Karen

This is correct. SE cannot folow links that are usually linked with the GET method (pagename.php?id=xxx) as Soho does, that's why html mirrors are created.
What i meant is that for each product (it is about a flea market) the product page is created automatically from the database. In the database, with each product, the page description is automatically created from the booth description (defined by the user) , the h1 tags already exist, and the image tags are created from the item name.
For each flea, the page keywords are retrieved from the database also (the site admin provides them when creating the booth). The site will soon be available for reviews. And a shopping cart made in BV with a database driven engine is soon to follow.

Cool Beans Naval,

Ill help you test it. Are you allowing for SIM integration or will it have to be AIM integration for CC processors? AIM=SSL SIM=processed at processors site?

Karen

Vasili,
To answer your question from long ago...we were using a wireless connection from video feeds in the factory for observation of the midnight shift. Someone intercepted the signal and used it to send spam. It was an SE (I think) somewhere in Germany that blacklisted us. So far we are not to be found on any major search engine.

Hi terry,

i just Googled for " clamshell, blister, mock clamshell ".
Guess where masterpack.com is ?

http://www.google.it/search?sourceid...mock+clamshell

However, searching for sigle keywords, does not give so encouraging results. You are in a very competitive job with thousands of companies and sites.

Thanks George.
I'll have to email my customer. i guess that is better than I thought. However, the main keyword is "clamshell"
That is progress though.