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David Marshall
03-17-2008, 11:20 AM
Hi,

on my hypnotherapy site, www.themindconsultant.co.uk (http://www.themindconsultant.co.uk) I have been achieving pages 1-2 on google for "hypnotherapy in hertfordshire" etc.

The site is now about 50 pages and I have adding pages with the keyword phrases etc. All of a sudden the site has all but dropped of the google world and I don't understand why? Where I was achieving first page I am now not even on the 7th! This is a real issue as my business comes of the internet and I am obviously now not getting people to the site!!!!

Any help is appreciated.

many thanks

Vasili
03-17-2008, 11:38 AM
How long has it been up? If this is the second or even third cycle of SE's caching your site, then quite obviously they do not value something as you expected on the return monthly visit....

Is your site properly and uniformly "optimized"?
Do you have all the basic elements of "optimization" present (including sitemaps, Meta, etc.)?
Is your website in total W3 and Perfect Page compliance?
Is your content properly formatted and demonstrating the degree of uniqueness required (not copied, plagiarized, or similar)?
Are your competitors doing anything different (do they have a progressive SEO strategy)?

There are many influences, systems of valuation, and perspectives to manitain, all of which have direct bearing on the ranking of websites. And, that is why a professional SEO Strategy takes good money to maintain (as well as a proven crew, and not just the efforts of an individual)!

Vasili
03-17-2008, 12:00 PM
Questioning some of my comments? Well, I did just a quick look-see, and noticed first thing that your rollover links on the index page are pretty much a violation of SE metrics, inasmuch they fairly duplicate your Key Words far too closely, and are all the same (rather than simple relevant tags to various interior pages, as would be normally seen).

You have grasped some concepts of formatting a page (use of footers, text links for pages as visible text links also in the foorter, etc.) but are very close to being read as "Black Hat" in others, as mentioned above.

I would really examine your entire index page to not over-reach, but to simply cover the bases in a much more compliant, balanced fashion ....
..

karel
03-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Maybe just maybe as has happened to me in the past it is a temporary thing. My site has dissapeared and the reapeared on the first page a day or two later. I think this maybe the case if you hit the first and second page for these phrases, unless you have done something to upset google I can't see this happening. Could be wrong, but again it has happened to me 2 or 3 times, so don't worry just yet.

Paul

P.S David also you would be far better linking the text at the top of your home page rather than getting people to click the ticks.

AJ113
03-17-2008, 02:01 PM
Yes it's happened to me too in the past. Very frustrating. Google has just had an update so that could be an influencing factor. You may be left with no other option but to "wait and see." My guess is that your se results listings will creep back to their previous levels over a period of time.

If you have been adding pages containing decent content Google has this infuriating habit of penalising you first by de-indexing multiple pages before acknowledging that your site is actually improving, and indexing your new pages. Regrettably it's more of an incentive to cease your webmaster activities than it is to forge ahead with enhancements.

David Marshall
03-17-2008, 04:41 PM
thanks all,

Vasili, in your opinion should I simple reorganise/remove/change some of the links from the front page, make it simpler?

The site has been up for two months and was doing very well in terms of moving up the rankings, this is why I do not understand this. I have used the same processes to add pages throughout!

I have been careful to optimize it on each page. I have a site map.

The competition are all very similar to each other which is why I wanted to build a site that would become a reference for people rather just another 5 page sales site for hypno sessions.

I have not checked the compliance as you mentioned.

Karel, AJ113, how long did it take to get the site back up? Not sure I can wait indefinitely for google?

Dave

David Marshall
03-17-2008, 04:47 PM
Just checked the compliance on w3 site and the index page failed with 53 errors, sounds like my car failed an MOT but what does that really mean?

Does not sound too great though!

dave

Karen Mac
03-17-2008, 05:44 PM
What do you mean failed? 53 errors.. what kind of errors were they?

Your link to stress management is broken, and when i check on sitereportcard.com I see 43 warnings, mostly for division tags, and this could be something with the bv builder, but this most likely will have NOTHING to do with your page rank or keyword rank. Almost everyone has some errors, and ive seen pages with pr 7 with html errors. Its pretty tough to build a site without SOME error. I would tend to worry if the browser or viewer or the se couldnt navigate or read the pages.

I tell you what will screw you tho..SPAMMY ALT TAGS. Its obviously KEYWORD STUFFED. I dont care if you are using page titles, page names, alt tags, any time you misuse it.. you are going to be DINGED for it. An alt tag DESCRIBES A PICTURE

Heres what youve done with it.. for example:


<img src="bv01676.gif" id="Shape1" align="top" alt="David Marshall, Hypnotherapist, Hypnotherapy, NLP and Coaching Hertfordshire. Local to Luton, Bedford, Stevenage, St Albans in North Hertfordshire. Hypnotherapy, Hypnosis, coaching and NLP to help with weight loss,personal life changes,stress and anxiety,depression,stopping smoking,business coaching,life coaching,removal of phobias." border="0" width="912" height="1368"></div>

Thats a shape on your site. WTF does that shape have to do with what you typed in there? NOTHING and vice versa, its a shape defining your site, so if you are going to USE an alt tag in it then it should be something like, "defining left border", or background color for header..

An alt tag is NOT meant to SPAM brownie points, If you can use a keyword then fine.. Like "Our Hypnotherapy Office" ..so ya google is gonna drop you like a hot potato once it figures you are attempting to FOOL it.

Karen

karel
03-17-2008, 06:49 PM
Karel, AJ113, how long did it take to get the site back up? Not sure I can wait indefinitely for google?


Like it said above 1 or 2 days, it has happened a couple of times, probably more as I don't chack often, so don't worry just yet, if it does not change back then take it from there.

Also I looked at your site and it seems you are trying to please the search engines too much, remember although its great to have plenty of information on there, the site needs to be smart and easy to navigate for your customers and not just a mish mash of things. Like the massive list of areas at the foot of some of your pages, this one included.

http://www.themindconsultant.co.uk/removing-phobias.html

Paul

Karen Mac
03-17-2008, 08:27 PM
Spam is spam, no matter how nicely its put. SE dont forgive ignorance... That whole footer is trash, its so small NO ONE can read it but the SE and the listing of all those cities and towns is ****. Anyone living there KNOWS where you are, and a listing of 500 cities for the purpose of ranking is spam. The alt tags are trash, NO SUGAR COATING to it. ITS BAD TACTICS all the way around. I doubt in one or two days you will be back.

Karen

David Marshall
03-17-2008, 09:25 PM
Hi,


This is all a learning curve for me so thanks for all your advice. I have put too much effort into pleasing the search engines and have learnt something in that. I will change the site having learnt a lesson.

The alt tags highlighted with all that information was something I had seen used in a very successful site that works really well within the hypnotherapy world so I simply copied that, personally I don't like huge lists appearing on sites but it seemed to work for this other site so I followed suit.

The question now is should I put efort into changing the site or redo another one with another domain name, I will have a ponder,

thanks again

cheers

Dave

Karen Mac
03-17-2008, 09:43 PM
That site will get caught up, and it will disappear from the listings too, Other things probably have prevented it, like age etc.

Dave.. if it doesnt MAKE sense for your customer.. Dont do it. You can make a page and list communities/areas you serve ONE time, not every page should have it. Link to that page as a convenience to your customer to see if their community is serviced, if you feel you MUST have it.

Karen

You can Salvage that site, if .. they havent blacklisted you totally, and you dont show greyed out in the tool bar yet, which usually indicates a site has been.

AJ113
03-17-2008, 11:29 PM
If your site has been only been up for two months it could well be in the Google sandbox. I've certainly been there myself and it ain't good. Only time heals that one I'm afraid.

Without going in to the specifics I endorse the general advice given that the best way to optimise for SE's is to optimise for the visitor. If you adhere to this principle, you may not necessarily end up with best SEO, but you will have a good chance of not p1ssing off the SE's.

Just imagine yourself as a visitor when you are designing the pages, and ask yourself if YOU (as a visitor) would be happy with the resultant effort.

AJ113
03-17-2008, 11:36 PM
Karen may or may not be right about the ALT tags, one thing I'm sure of though, ALT tags don't play a major part in SE results, so if you're in doubt, drop them altogether. Concentrate on your page titles, using well-researched niche keywords. Name your URLs after the main keyword for each page, write good quality original content, and lots of it!

Vasili
03-17-2008, 11:58 PM
The ALT tags as currently presented are a detriment to site value altogether, yet clever use can add value when kept within the obvious rules for relevance and balance......and may be even used as a means to add more "text" to pages lean of Content: so they do, in fact have a significant contributable value if used optimally (and not "exclusively" for images - LOL).

The blatant duplication of tag to tag, and all being over-burdened with "Wildcard" attributes ('irrelevant'* Key Words and phrases) truly is a "Black Hat" trigger that is de-valueing whatever temporary positioning that was previously allowed to exist. It is the first thing I saw, and the most mentionable contributor to the "issue" being mish-moshed in this thread even now....


* "irrelevant": unsupported; not anchored by page content or unique combination of tags, text, links, and titles.

Karen Mac
03-18-2008, 12:03 AM
AJ..

If you KEYWORD STUFF anything.. Its going to have an impact. Alt tags and IMAGE names are read by the SE,while it wont be the ONLY thing it READS, I guarantee you, that if you use it to SPAM they will, just like the keyword META Tag, use it to count against you.

ALT tags (attributes)are one of the things they DO look and DO count along with countless other aspects in their algorythms. It amounts to the same thing as adding HIDDEN text on your webpage used incorrectly. Just because the visitor doesnt see it, the SE does.

The alt attribute was manifested in html coding to 1.) Display the text description if for some reason your image doesn't display properly and 2.) Render coding for Computer Rendered Voice Recognition programs for the Visually Impaired. You can alt attribute and TITLE attribute many things not just images.

SO .. alt attributes play no more relevancy than your page name, page title, or page content. The fact is .. if you use any of them, use them correctly, or dont use them at all. Use them to spam or trick the SE into believing your content is relevant, it will count double against you.

Ive been doing this more than 5 years, not a question if I am right or wrong. If I am wrong so are some big names on big boards that I am a member of and I can list you about 5000 pages of resources to back up what I am telling you. I didnt JUST arrive on Voda Host!

Karen

AJ113
03-18-2008, 12:05 AM
Wouldn't argue with most of that, but I do stand by my statement that well-optimised ALT tags aren't all that critical for SE results. You wouldn't lose out on a whole bunch of results if you had no ALT tags at all, providing the rest of the site was well optimised with good inbound links.

Vasili
03-18-2008, 12:15 AM
Your "degree" of opinion has been noted, yet is not entirely within conformity with currently published algorthims (each element is important: read in here the "orphaned object"). It is good to see that you preface such reflection with your own successful efforts, though, as it offers a greater sense of peerage and aptitude!

Karen Mac
03-18-2008, 12:18 AM
Wouldn't argue with most of that, but I do stand by my statement that well-optimised ALT tags aren't all that critical for SE results. You wouldn't lose out on a whole bunch of results if you had no ALT tags at all, providing the rest of the site was well optimised with good inbound links.

I disagree. As Vasili already stated, if a page is LEAN on content, alt tags are a good acceptable way to add content. They are available to use, and to use properly and part of dotting your i's and crossing your t's. If an image doesnt show up, a red x appears, Id much rather have something appear that gives one the idea of what is supposed to be there. It also gives a very silent audience aid in visualizing your site as I mentioned, visually impaired.

Optimizing isnt just about gaining points in the SE for page rank, its about getting visitors to your site, all sorts of visitors, and to do that you have to get listed, and relevant content gets you listed. (SERPS)

Karen

AJ113
03-18-2008, 12:35 AM
If a page is lean on content, write another paragraph. Google loves paragraphs.

Karen Mac
03-18-2008, 12:35 AM
lalalalala............. and alt tags would be part of that quality content...

and on we go!

Wait i heard that!

Karen

David Marshall
03-18-2008, 12:37 AM
Hi,

it seems I have two options and would love some advice/opinions on which one may the best way forward:

1. Reorganise the present site, removing the issues, then wait to see what happens.

2. Reorganise the pages and place on another domain name I have,

Any advice is very welcome and it is all very helpful. Got to head to bed now and get stuck into it in the morning. Basically I want the best site that works in every way, so with lessons learnt am ready to refocus efforts and crack on.

Thanks for all the comments, very helpful and yet another learning curve for me.

cheers

Dave

Vasili
03-18-2008, 12:46 AM
1. Fix the ALT tags, replacing with short "value"-oriented Key Words that are anchored on the page, or hyperlink them to an interior page with a relevant article.
2. Keep your footer "Menu" system, as it is in truth a "sub-navigation" that is not only useful to visitors drilling in for specifric articles, but provides the SE's with an 'up-front' snapshot functionality that should mirror your sitemap (which should be updated each time you add pages/articles).

IMO

Karen Mac
03-18-2008, 01:06 AM
Hi,

it seems I have two options and would love some advice/opinions on which one may the best way forward:

1. Reorganise the present site, removing the issues, then wait to see what happens.

2. Reorganise the pages and place on another domain name I have,

Any advice is very welcome and it is all very helpful. Got to head to bed now and get stuck into it in the morning. Basically I want the best site that works in every way, so with lessons learnt am ready to refocus efforts and crack on.

Thanks for all the comments, very helpful and yet another learning curve for me.

cheers

Dave

Dave

Clean up that site.. and if you leave the footer clean it up and make it usable in case a visitor is down there and doesnt want to scroll up.

Karen

karel
03-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Its all a learning curve Dave, I had some really bad advice in the early days from people who were a year behind on what google now frowned upon and nearly lost my site all together. I now just stick to the basics of getting good links, adding good content that is relevant to my site, writing articles and submitting them to well respected sites etc...etc I never try to get one over on the search engines as said google is not two men in a garage it is a very sophisticted company, who's goal it is to give the best sites to their customers, so always build it towards your customers and you will be far better off.

By the way you are back on the second page for those keywords so the reason I stated could be the case, now take the advice above and make the changes.

Good luck

Paul

David Marshall
03-18-2008, 01:57 PM
thanks again all, very useful feedback and advice,

just starting changes and looking forward to creating a better site,

cheers

Dave

David Marshall
03-18-2008, 10:59 PM
Hi,

vasili mentioned the links on my home page www.themindconsultant.co.uk (http://www.themindconsultant.co.uk)

I was wondering what was meant by this. I have nearly altered the whole site but wanted to understand this before I finished this part of the process.

Many thanks as ever for your help.

dave

David Marshall
03-24-2008, 10:58 AM
just to finish this thread off, i am back in google land, two weeks it has taken but with the changes made I am off and running again!

thanks for all your help

dave