Thin line for Tables

[sinisa72@gmail.com]

I would love to see a table that has a single line instead two lines, ( one for the table and one for the cell )

I have a lot of need that involve the use of thin lines for tables but cannot use BV table as it does not allow it.

Please do not tell me to reduce the current width to 1 as that does not work!

As I am writing this wish/request I can see a thin table used for B. voda's banner add placed on the top right of this page http://www.vodahost.com/vodatalk/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=27

In the meantime an HTML code thaqt will reduce the thickness of the lines would be a great help as I have noticed that tables and cells have a HTML coding option .

Sinisa
vullcanairbrush.com

[navaldesign]

Well, actually there is an easy way to do it. BUT, you need to do this for all cells, it is not enough doing it for the entire table:

Right click each cell, select HTML, and paste the following in the Inside Tag:

style="border:1px"

Otherwise you need to define a css style class and then add this class assignment inside the table html Inside TAG

[sinisa72@gmail.com]

Thanks Naval you're always a great help,

I tried that and it looks great for one cell , but when I want to create an entire table ( with multiple cells) then cell lines obviously do not appear leaving the table blank which is not what we wanted in the first place.
Please check the page http://www.vullcanairbrush.com/test_1.php
and on the left you will see the desired effect.
On the right hand side of the above page, is the B. Voda's table with the applied code you provided ( the code was used only on three cells ).

Ideally cell border would merge into the table border and adjacent cell lines would merge!
Also BV tables do not seem to follow orders. I have place a yellow color for all cells as well but they do not appear in the preview or after publishing.
This is a serious issue ...!
Anyway if you would look at the example maybe you have a solution...
Best regards
Sinisa
P.S I hope BV is listening because the table I have made has total of nine cells but after publishing only eight appear and never in the spot I have originally placed the table at.

[navaldesign]

From a research that i made, it seems that Karen is right. Since html by default places the cells one beside the other, the minimum border that you can have is 2 pixels (because each cell has a border of 1 pixel)

I also researched css solutions, but there doesn't seem to be a way to have thin lines unless you accept the double lines (each cell has its own border).

[Karen Mac]

In blue voda, of you set your table with 0 spacing and 0 padding in the PROPERTIES, you get one line only and it also borders the CELLS. So.. if you dont also add a border for the cells, you wont get DOUBLED lines

Even in HARD coding html tables and you use borders, you will still get double lines if you border the cells and the table both. Doesnt matter if you use css classes to refine it or not. ITS the law of the land.

You may add a layer and make a table with no borders and then add lines that are IMAGES or shapes smaller than 1px over the table, or create a transparent gif to lay over it, or vice versa but thats the only way you are going to get smaller lines.

Karen

[navaldesign]

Actually they are two lines, that's why they appear as thick. Because each cell comes beside to the next (and to the entire table border)

This is way i suggested that thick lines can be obtained with double lines (cellspacing > 0)

[Karen Mac]

Naval

Yes.. but she wants THINNER lines and is complaining they are TOO thick.

Karen

[navaldesign]

BV will create 1 px borders for tables. There is no less than 1 px. BUT, setting the cellspacing to 0, will result in lines of 2 pixels (for the reasons explained above, that is, because they are 2 lines one beside the other).

If you set the cellspacing to 1 or 2 pixels, the lines are thin alright, BUT they are double.

[Karen Mac]

OY VEY.. i know this..LOL...thats why i said just use the TABLE border and no border for the cells.

Karen

[navaldesign]

But, BV doesn't allow to define the cell border separately from the table border. And, even if you use the style"border:0px" as i descibed above, unfortunately it resuls in cells without any border at all. There will only be a rectangle border.

[sinisa72@gmail.com]

That is correct that is why I suggest a thineer line option , instead of 1PX , make 0.5PX line.
Sinisa

[navaldesign]

There can NOT be a line thinner than 1 px, your monitor (as any monitor in the world) can not render something that is less than the physical dimensions of a pixel.

[sinisa72@gmail.com]

Thank you for letting me know this piece if information ,
I do not mean to sound controversial what I need is a thin line for table and as I said earlier 1px will do!

I use a graphic program Art Explosion that allows you to control each line of the table so the question is not weather A SEPARATING LINE for table can be made to 1px but will BV be willing to do it!
Sinisa

P.S. It is not necessary to create an option for each cell line to be modified in BV after all anything more than that is graphic design but to make your website pleasing to an eye of beholder BV should have Thin Line Option feature.

I do want to say that so far I have received much resistance for any suggestion I made.

When I suggested Site search tools to be implemented as a regular feature of BV website builder , BV Programmer told me that it cannot be done.

That is not most ridicilous statements one can made .This wiseguy also told me that the way my website was built I cannot even have one.
This person is supposed to be an expert.
As the matter of fact I do have a site serch program which you Naval help install!

So much for BV expertise! I am sure that this is all a front as they are really unwilling to advance much ,otherwise thse changes would have been made a long time ago!

I suggested two other ideas and even though they are legitimate they have been discarded.


-Professional looking slide show with smooth transitions ( there are plenty of them that can be modified )

- Roll over text and image for the shape tool

I am starting to believe that this channel is just for venting the frustrations of the some users as improvements for things that matter do not seem to show last two years I have been a member!

[navaldesign]

I will try to answer as better as i can.

Thank you for letting me know this piece if information ,
I do not mean to sound controversial what I need is a thin line for table and as I said earlier 1px will do!

This is not a BV issue, it is how HTML is designed to work. Graphics programs can create thin border tables, but only whilst they run on your desktop. HTML instead, can NOT place the border of a cell ON the border of the cell beside, it places the cells so that borders are one beside the other, thus resulting in thiker lines (because actually it is two of them). So BV can not have this feature. To my knowledge, there is NO html editor or HTML generator (website builder) that can do this.

I use a graphic program Art Explosion that allows you to control each line of the table so the question is not weather A SEPARATING LINE for table can be made to 1px but will BV be willing to do it!

IF this program can do what you say in HTML level (not on your desctop, that's easy) I would LOVE to see a table with thin borders created and published in a test page!!

P.S. It is not necessary to create an option for each cell line to be modified in BV after all anything more than that is graphic design but to make your website pleasing to an eye of beholder BV should have Thin Line Option feature.

As explained, it is a HTML issue, not a BV one.

I do want to say that so far I have received much resistance for any suggestion I made.

When I suggested Site search tools to be implemented as a regular feature of BV website builder , BV Programmer told me that it cannot be done.

Not sure who told you so. Please note that there are two ways of searching a site: one is database based: there are scripts (in php) that when installed on your site, will scan and index your content just as the Search Engines do. They store the results in a database, and then they display a search form which allows users to search your site content. However, since they require a database (usually, some also do it with flat files) they can NOT be included in BV.
The second way, which BV has already included, is to use the Form Wizard search form (available for Google and Yahoo) which will allow users to search your site THROUGH Google or Yahoo. The results are ONLY for your site. Not that good as the database ones, but sufficient for most users.

That is not most ridicilous statements one can made .This wiseguy also told me that the way my website was built I cannot even have one.
This person is supposed to be an expert.
As the matter of fact I do have a site serch program which you Naval help install!

I don't want to know the name, but i think that the person that told you so is not such an expert at all.

So much for BV expertise! I am sure that this is all a front as they are really unwilling to advance much ,otherwise thse changes would have been made a long time ago!

Well, that's not true. The last version of BV has implemented more than 50 new features. From forms, image manipulation, local folders, and lots of others . The fact is that the software continously evolves taking into account the user suggestions, but there are priorities! If a feature is asked by 1000 users and another by 10 users, it is obvious that the first one has the priority. With this said, please also take into consideration that BV is free, so there is no direct revenue from its development. I know MANY website builders that cost $50 - $1000, and, of course, the best ones cost more. However, those costy ones, are also quite difficult to learn and use, and they are not, in my opinion, suitable for the market Vodahost aims to.

-Professional looking slide show with smooth transitions ( there are plenty of them that can be modified )

Slide shows are either Javascript or PHP, and usually based on xml files (you don't see them but they are there). Creating such a slideshow is not easy, in fact most of them are VERY difficult. BV implements, if possible, the open source ones.

- Roll over text and image for the shape tool

Not sure what you mean.

I am starting to believe that this channel is just for venting the frustrations of the some users as improvements for things that matter do not seem to show last two years I have been a member!

Well, this is a rather hard to understand statement.
BV 8 had only a fraction of the features BV 10 features. BV now has one the best form wizard. It has become Unicode, thus supporting all possible languages. It improved tables, though not yet as you desire them. It has implemented image manipulation, rotation, effects. It has implemented the Logo, the guestbook, the form validation, the RSS feed, different types of menus, Lightbox, Glass buttons, PayPal buttons and a LOT more! These features didn't get implemented just because some crazy programmer thought that it would be nice, but because users have asked for them!

Don't forget that the major feature of BV is its simplicity and the short learning curve. It might not have everything, but has what MOST users would ever ask for. And, it is constantly improving......

[sinisa72@gmail.com]

Thank you Naval ,
I will try to respond best I can,

1) RE: Blue Voda Lacks thin Lines

I never said I had a problem with how HTML works, all I said is there is a genuine need to have thin lines for tables.

How that is accomplished and weather you use java ,xhtml , css or any other programming language it is entirely choice of a programmer!Right?

Since Blue Voda lacks thin line feature for tables it is a Blue Voda Problem!

The facts are it can be done and any person that needs it ,cannot have it!

2) RE: Site search
As far as I know the landing page for that type of site search is google or yahoo which takes users away from your site and as you said clearly not an option for a small business!( correct me if I am wrong about the landing page )

3) Improvements in blue Voda
Actually I am right about Blue Voda not making improvements (I say that with obvoius limitations) here is why !You said that forms are new feature.

Forms are basic tools yet it took Blue Voda centuries before only last year they implemented them!

While some may argue that , how about spelling?

That too took years before it was implemeted and that only few months back. If that is not dark ages you tell me!
Spelling check is a basic tool! No comment!!

Let me say just that by adding basic features and letting users know how they are "New features " instead of "corrections" is not fooling anyone!

4) RE: Slide Show
This too can be done as the matter of fact the smooth transition in Java is a very small script .Instead in Blue Voda in the slide show provided pictures appear abruptly as in a cheesy movie.
For anyone to tell me that can't be patched in instead the old one is simply not true!


5) Roll over text and image for the shape tool
Here is another one ,
Blue Voda has few button imagefeatures .They all lack something or are made with intention to make you feel like there are alot of features !

For instance:

a) You can rollover image but you do not have a way to add text for links so text to can rollover as well (change color)

b)Button tool,
The same thing, you can place any type of button but you cannot change color of the text so you are stuck !

c) Navigation tool has a button image and text rollover but no way of placing your button image.Again youre stuck...

Threre are many things we can say about Blue Voda that we can say about many website builders the difference is I paid for this service and I am stuck trying to correct things!

If I say I need thin lines for tables and you say, That is not our problem talk to HTML , that leaves me without an option!

Another thing Blue Voda Is NOT FREE! You have to pay Voda Host because only Voda host supports Blue Voda website builder on their incrypted server .

Regards
Sinisa

[navaldesign]

I'm afraid we are talking different languages here. So i will answer you and then finish it here.

Thank you Naval ,
1) RE: Blue Voda Lacks thin Lines

I never said I had a problem with how HTML works, all I said is there is a genuine need to have thin lines for tables.

How that is accomplished and weather you use java ,xhtml , css or any other programming language it is entirely choice of a programmer!Right?

Since Blue Voda lacks thin line feature for tables it is a Blue Voda Problem!

The facts are it can be done and any person that needs it ,cannot have it!

Absolutely wrong!

HTML is the page description language. Java, Javascript, css, php and ANY other programing language, finaly outputs pure HTML! It is not invented by BV or ANY other website builder. It is built according to international standars and you can't change them. What you ask is NOT at the moment doable simply because HTML can't do it. End.

2) RE: Site search
As far as I know the landing page for that type of site search is google or yahoo which takes users away from your site and as you said clearly not an option for a small business!( correct me if I am wrong about the landing page )

Correct, the landing page is that of the SE.

Again, i explained why it can't be done by a medium experienced user as it requires actions that go beneath what an automated procedure can do. It COULD be doable on a dedicated server, but not on a shared hosting due to implications with database, php and so on. On shared hosting, the user would need to create the database, setup the script and more...You admitted that to install your search script you needed my help. The average user will hardly be able to do it.

3) Improvements in blue Voda
Actually I am right about Blue Voda not making improvements (I say that with obvoius limitations) here is why !You said that forms are new feature.

Forms are basic tools yet it took Blue Voda centuries before only last year they implemented them!

Forms have ALWAYS been there. But, if you go to Go D a d d y and other famous hoster's forums (if they have any forum at all....) you will find out that they ALL have issues with forms, and form processing has always been a hard problem to deal with. Allow me to know better than you, since i have installed form processing scripts for customers of most known hosting companies. What I said that is new in BV is the built in form processsor (which, to my knowledge is only a feature of a bunch of site builders around the worls, most of which are online, and thus dedicated to the hosting company that offers the sitebuilder to its customers). The ease of use of the BV form wizard and built in form processor are unique.

While some may argue that , how about spelling?

That too took years before it was implemeted and that only few months back. If that is not dark ages you tell me!
Spelling check is a basic tool! No comment!!

What you might don't know, is that spellcheckers are based on dictionaries. Those are paid for! and well paid! So BV has implemented this feature when one was made available as open source.

Let me say just that by adding basic features and letting users know how they are "New features " instead of "corrections" is not fooling anyone!

Something that doesn't exist in a version and is added in a newer version IS a new feature. If you want to call it a "correction" you are free to do so. I would be interested in knowing how many users share your opinion or mine...

4) RE: Slide Show
This too can be done as the matter of fact the smooth transition in Java is a very small script .Instead in Blue Voda in the slide show provided pictures appear abruptly as in a cheesy movie.
For anyone to tell me that can't be patched in instead the old one is simply not true!

You seem to be very sure about what you are stating. I confess that with several thousands hrs of programing in my luggage, i don't know how to do it. You seem instead pretty sure...

5) Roll over text and image for the shape tool
Here is another one ,
Blue Voda has few button imagefeatures .They all lack something or are made with intention to make you feel like there are alot of features !

For instance:

a) You can rollover image but you do not have a way to add text for links so text to can rollover as well (change color)

b)Button tool,
The same thing, you can place any type of button but you cannot change color of the text so you are stuck !

c) Navigation tool has a button image and text rollover but no way of placing your button image.Again youre stuck...

I still don't understand what you mean, as in my previous post.
a. I would LOVE you to post a link to some site that has this feature, never seen it (until today) anywhere
b. Do you mean the nav bar ? the Form control buttons ? what ? The submit and reset buttons CAN be replaced by image buttons, you simply name them "submit" or "reset" and they behave as such. And you can use whatever image of your own you like (I use 3D like arrows for my customers)
c. Wrong. The nav bar can accept ANY image you want, as long as you add it in the buttons library. There is a post of mine in the Tips and Trics section that explains this.

In ALL cases you can create the images (normal and mouseover) WITH the text you like (same or different color for the two cases) and use a rollover as a navigation button.

Threre are many things we can say about Blue Voda that we can say about many website builders the difference is I paid for this service and I am stuck trying to correct things!

You pay for the hosting. THIS is the service. Other hosting companies offer much less for the same or a higher price. And, please note that this is a free market.. You are not obliged to stuck with VH. BV, on the contrary of other hosting companies where the sitebuilder is online (and for this reason available ONLY AFTER they have paid) is available even before you signup, so you can fullytest and see if it is ok for you.

If I say I need thin lines for tables and you say, That is not our problem talk to HTML , that leaves me without an option!

In fact, there isn't. As i siad, HTML is designed by an international non profit consortium. IF, in the future, they change this, BV will implement it.

Another thing Blue Voda Is NOT FREE! You have to pay Voda Host because only Voda host supports Blue Voda website builder on their encrypted server .

Wrong. You pay for the HOSTING. You pay for the servers, for the necessary software that is used for the servers, you pay for the lines that are necessary for the comunication with the rest of the world, you pay for the staff that takes care of everything, you pay for the support you get when needed. And you get a FREE tool to build your site, which is up to you to use or not. If you feel that BV is so poor in features, simply use whatever other tool you want and best suits you.

No tool in the world (software) ever was created right from the start in its final version. I pay $$$$ each year in maintainance fees to keep my professional software updated. because almost every couple of months (even more often..) there is an update, a bug fix, a security patch and so on. Before stating that BV is not improved or enriched, please compare version 7 with the current one (3 years of distance..)